Spiritual Sustainability
In this conversation with energy worker, plant guru, author, artist, and environmental educator Rachael Cohen, we talk about spiritual appropriation, the need for sustainability practices in the tools utilized by the spiritual community, and safe and sustainable ways of utilizing essential oils. Last but not least, Rachael leaves us with her thoughts on how and why the sustainability movement can use some principles from spirituality.
Rachael Cohen is a botanical stylist, author, energy worker, and environmental educator who connects people to Nature in creative & therapeutic ways through her business Infinite Succulent. Rachael infuses all she does, from her plant art, to her healing sessions, with Nature's positive energy, along with respect & stewardship for Mother Earth.
You can find Rachael at...
Instagram: @infinitesucculent
Website: www.infinitesucculent.com
Pinterest: Infinite Succulent
Exploring Responsibly is 100% self-funded and generosity-powered. At this time, I am only able to offer each guest the equivalent of a cup of coffee for their time. So please go and check out their work and ways in which you can support them - all relevant links can be found in the show notes. If you want to support this space further you can also become a Patreon at patreon.com/gabaccia .
I once more want to thank you for being here,
Gabaccia
The following conversation transcript was generated using an AI service and with very slight human editing, which means there may be parts that do not make sense, have typos, etc. In the ideal world, we would have all the means to make our transcripts more accessible and completely human-proofed. Coming soon.
TRANSCRIPT
Gabaccia 0:19
Hello, everyone, I'm Gabaccia, the host of Exploring Responsibly, my pronouns are she/her/hers, and I'm really excited. tuning in live today from Santa Fe, New Mexico, the land of the Pueblos and the Jicarilla Apache people to meet up with my dear friend, and longtime collaborator, also, Rachael. And so she is just about now coming in.
Rachael 0:55
Hi. I didn't mean to interrupt your beautiful intro keep coming.
Gabaccia 1:01
It was it was a perfect timing. I was literally done by the time you came in. So thank you so much for being here. In this the second ever episode of Exploring Responsibly, all about spiritual sustainability. So yeah, why don't we, why don't we start by you just telling us who you are? What is Infinite Succulent? Yeah, let's just start there.
Rachael 1:29
Okay, wonderful. Well, first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm so honored to be your second guest. For those who are just joining, my name is Rachael. It's actually Rachel, but that's very hard for people to say. So...
Gabaccia 1:43
Wait I can I can say that. Rachel.
Rachael 1:47
Yes. Yay.
Gabaccia 1:49
Oh, I can't believe I've been saying, Well, I know you go by Rachel but I just want to call you Rachel from now on.
Rachael 1:55
Oh, goodness, my whole life. People called me Rachel, if I didn't, like they just would inevitably call me Rachel. And no insult to Rachels out there, but I just don't identify with that name. So I found that if I just introduced myself as Rachael, at least people would call me by a name that sounded closer to my own.
Gabaccia 2:17
Like no, make everyone go "ha". You know, of course, we all, we all got to practice all sorts of sounds, you know.
Rachael 2:26
Exactly. Well, I grew up on the east coast. I've been living in California since 2005. I'm here in San Diego now, which is traditionally the land of the Kumeyaay people. And I wish I knew more about the Kumeyaay to be honest, I know that they are there are more tribes than just like the overarching name of Kumeyaay . But this area of the country was historically tended by the Kumeyaay people. And there are still Kumeyaay reservations out here as well. And I, my background is all about environmental education. I have my bachelor's degree in sociology with a, you know, minor in environmental studies in ecology. So my interest was always in the relationship between humans, people and the natural world, and how we kind of interact with each other or sometimes don't interact with each other. Or at least it seems like we're not interacting because we live on this planet. So obviously, we're always interacting with nature. I went and got my master's in marine biodiversity and conservation here at Scripps Institute of Oceanography and Latoya. I've worked at places like the San Diego Zoo as an animal trainer and presenter. I've worked at Monterey Bay Aquarium as an ocean educator, worked at a place called Sea Life Park Hawaii as an ocean educator. So for me for a long time, my focus was really on education, and learning and teaching people about nature teaching people about wild animals at places like zoos and aquariums, and stir, I became in awe. And I actually found myself dealing with a lot of feelings of anxiety, depression, ego phobia, and I started turning to plants and actually making art from plants as a form of therapy for myself. And that grew into an entire business. And so now with my business, Infinite Succulents, I create planted art, I do botanical styling, which means I go into spaces and help people bring more nature into their spaces, into their homes into their workspaces. I also do energy work. And I use things like crystals and plants as part of the healing modalities and part of the shifting of energy within spaces and also within ourselves. And I write I write here on Instagram, I write blogs and I have one book out and I'm working on some another book right now and I have some ebooks and so I'm all really about connecting people with nature and reconnecting ourselves on a very personal level with nature as well. And hopefully inspiring more love, which I believe that love is the first step toward protection.
Gabaccia 5:16
I will definitely have to agree with that. I think we, we can definitely use more of that in the world. But no question.
Rachael 5:27
Well, the reasons why I've actually always been a proponent for things like Zoos and Aquariums, I know that there are many in the conservation world and just in the world in general, who think that those are like, cruel or bad, my impression, and my belief is that actually, these are very important places because it brings to the human experience, something that they would never think about or care about otherwise, and it makes people care about far off places far off species. And if we don't, we can see even with our care and love how destructive our actions still ours, you can only imagine if we didn't care at all, where we might be right now.
Gabaccia 6:08
So absolutely, I think I mean, I think that's a that's a really good point. Like, I'm one of those people that I feel super uncomfortable at the zoo. Like I don't personally like it. But I've also had the experience of going into one of those wild animal parks where supposedly the animals are roaming free. And I got to see as our cart was moving away, I look back and I literally saw on the other side of the road, these guys throwing rocks at the giraffes so that they will go out to where the people were going to see them. And I was like, This is ridiculous. This. This was in, in Mexico like perhaps 15 or more than 15 years ago, but I was heartbroken.
Rachael 6:53
Yeah, and there's really, there's definitely circumstances in places where animals and kept are kept in captivity in ways that are just heartbreaking and traumatizing and abusive, no question about it. But what let's one of the reasons why regulations can and should be used in are important. You know, here in the United States of America, we have a whole accreditation process for Zoos and Aquariums where the esteem Zoos and Aquariums all need to be accredited by the APA, the American Psychological Association. And you have to meet specific very, very specific standards to be accredited and it has so much to do with care and respect for the animals. proper diet, it gets as detailed as like which animals are allowed to breed with each other in order home genetic, like, just genetic health, you don't want to have Yeah, you know, and sometimes we have to look at our zoos and aquariums in some way. It's kind of like a Noah's Ark. And I do look in that way a little bit. I think sometimes we think about oh, we should free all these animals, right? Like they're captive. They're being held in prison. I worked at a zoo where these animals had better health care than I did.
Gabaccia 8:10
Of course, no, I was able to. Yeah, no, they have better accommodations, better housing. No, I totally know.
Rachael 8:23
But everywhere I've worked the amount of love and care that goes into the animals caring for the animals and the plants to like anyone who's ever been to San Diego Zoo or the San Diego Zoo Safari Park can see how the horticulture department is a huge part of that whole endeavor to and like caring for plants and keeping the plants available for eating for the animals but also for the habitat. And also they do a lot of work with like endangered species with plants and animals. So I really see the good zoos and aquariums as being a Noah's Ark for us, especially what we're doing with habitat destruction around the world. I think a lot of times we we really glorify this idea that the wild is where all animals should be and that's safer for them. And I think we forget that at this point in time humans have encroached upon every single habitat on this planet from the deepest parts of the ocean, to the very top of the highest mountains, we have impacted everything. So it's important for us to keep that in mind. And I'm not saying that all no animals should be in the wild. Of course we want we want wild animals. That's the whole point. blank spaces to have the wild animals in the wild species. But that's not also a fool ourselves to believe that we can release animals bred in captivity, especially smart social animals, like lions, like even elephants, you know, like they've been bred in captivity. Like you're freed!
Gabaccia 9:53
Yeah, they're not going to enjoy that. They're like what where's where's my nine o'clock breakfast?
Rachael 9:57
Yeah!
Gabaccia 9:59
I'm not seeing it. No, I absolutely agree.
Rachael 10:03
And it is different for some animals like, for example, sea turtles because I, when I was living in Hawaii, I was a big, we did a lot of work at sea life park with gathering up the green sea turtle eggs incubating them, hatching them, growing them to a certain size and then releasing them back out into the ocean. Because for every, like 1000 eggs laid, and one of those hatchlings will make it back to actually laying its own nest. Like these are the odds we're working with here. So sometimes you gather up these eggs, you grow them so that they're a little bit bigger, so that when you release them, they have a better chance of actually making it. So animals like sea turtles that are prehistoric, because they are I mean, they've been around Yeah, they actually do have certain memories and printed upon them with things like migration routes. Like you can take a sea turtle hatchling, it doesn't need its mom, it just goes to the water.
Gabaccia 10:56
Yeah. What is that? I mean, I'm saying like documentaries, right? And you're like...
Rachael 11:00
Yeah, it's in their brain like this magical setting. It's a it's a memory that's encoded in their DNA. And they don't like it's very different than social animals that are tend to be a little bit higher up on what we humans would consider like intelligence, again, how we measure that is, of course, based on our own perception. But animals like dolphins whales, where the babies need the mom to teach them how to survive. Yeah,
Gabaccia 11:27
you can't I mean, humans like right, look, right? I mean, a baby doesn't have any chance, right? Without a mom or a caretaker, right?
Rachael 11:36
Like, I know, most mammals that similar mammal species, like you need a maternal, or you need some kind of primary caregiver for the babies to teach them how to be. But some other animals that tends to be more of like prehistoric ones, like the sea turtles, like, yeah, she's out there, like, all kinds of insects and invertebrates, like they just, they're like, I'm alive. I know exactly what I need to do.
Gabaccia 12:03
They just go for it.
Rachael 12:05
But you know, when we're dealing with wildlife conservation, it's important to note these things. You know, it's not always as simple as I mean, I don't this is going to show my age. But remember, Free Willy, remember that movie back...
Gabaccia 12:18
Of course I remember Free Willy.
Rachael 12:20
Well, the the the orca that was used for that movie...
Gabaccia 12:25
Yeah!
Rachael 12:25
Re released that released because of so much of that movie. They actually were like okay...
Gabaccia 12:31
I know, I met I met that whale.
Rachael 12:33
Yeah.
Gabaccia 12:34
The Mexican SeaWorld whale.
Rachael 12:36
Yes and there was this big push to try and reintroduce this animal back to the wild. A lot of money. Was that it, it didn't work. It didn't work out.
Gabaccia 12:48
Yeah, no, I mean, and it didn't work. I think it's I, you know, when when I think of like this weird feeling that I get going to the zoo. And as a child, I love going to the zoo, right? It was like, my favorite place, I got to see the animals. And it's probably a big part of why I love animals. Yeah. But it's, it's more like this thought of one day, somebody thought, oh, let's put these things in cages and take them around traveling and show them off. So you know, it's like its origin might be a little questionable. But as we have evolved as communities and societies and, and civilizations and whatnot, you know, there's definitely and especially in a place like, again, the United States like having this infrastructure that you're talking about where there's a certain level of standards that organizations and institutions need to meet in order to be able to just manage the animals, then you know, that that just now serves a different purpose. Right. It's not it's not just it's not just it's not just the education part, but it's also the preservation part, like I guess, I mean, I don't I don't have like, data and facts of how many species have been sort of salvaged from being in a zoo.
Rachael 14:06
Right. Well, I can give you a good example of that with the San Diego Zoo in particular, because San Diego Zoo, which also has a safari park, they've got like two big parks here in San Diego. They have a huge branch that's just conservation. I mean, they have research stations and Africa and Hawaii when it comes to things with wild birds. But let's take for example, the California condor. No more to Condor is kind of related to the vulture. It's a card note. It's a bird that's kind of like a decomposer in the sense that it eats dead things. And there used to be extremely prevalent here. And then they were hunted almost to extinction. And then of course, they were also eating things that had been poisons that kind of wasn't good for them. So back in the 70s and 80s the condors were almost gone. I mean, really, like almost completely gone. And then the San Diego Zoo and stated this Condor conservation program where they would, you know, find where the nests were grab the eggs bring them in, they would actually they wanted to limit human contact with the birds because they didn't want the birds to imprints on humans because these were all going to be bred to be released back out into the wild,
Gabaccia 15:17
Right.
Rachael 15:17
So they actually created this hand puppet that looks like a Commodore. Also, when they went to feed the babies, it's the carrion and stuff it was they never saw human, they would wear this big...
Gabaccia 15:33
I love that so much.
Rachael 15:34
Like a black curtain over them and then just have their hand through a condor puppet, and would feed the little babies that way so that the baby chicks would still imprint on what looked like a condor. Another good example of that was the work I did at Monterey Bay Aquarium with the sea otters. Because sea otters were also almost hunted entirely to extinction here in California, their range used to be pretty much the entire coast of California, they were fabbed from Mexico, you know, our border here with Mexico all the way up to the border with Oregon. But because of their amazing thick fur, they were hunted almost completely to extinction, there was a small pocket that were able to survive out by the Channel Islands. And then there was also a small pocket that was able to survive kind of along the Big Sur area because at that time, there was no road there. And so it was a harder area to traverse. So the fur trappers couldn't really find them. But being that they were small populations left, there was a bit of inbreeding that happens amongst those sea otters. And so it led to them being a little bit more susceptible to disease, which is again, what happens when we lose our biodiversity is weak. And this happens for plant species too. We're more susceptible to illness and such. So at the Monterey Bay Aquarium, they get called whenever there's like a sea otter pup that's missing from its mom, or there's been a start sea otter, you know, they often get bit by sharks, things like that. But whenever there's a pup a situation where a pup and the mom are separated, depending on how young they are, will know like, can we actually rehabilitate this animal to be back in the wild? Or is this one going to be one that's going to be an ambassador animal? Like is it just too young, it's not going to survive like it'll become an ambassador animal, meaning it'll stay in ours. Our zoo or this aquarium will go to another zoo or an aquarium and be an animal that represents its species in the wild. So what we would do for the little sea otters that were deemed you know, releasable is whenever we had to go work with them, we would put on this huge like black poncho. And then we will put it's funny because we
Gabaccia 17:48
Conceal humanity. Yes, seriously, we don't want them to be like people. Yeah. Oh, yeah. People feed me. Give me your cookies.
Rachael 17:59
Like welder's mask over the black things that they couldn't see our face. Because honestly, Gabi they are so friggin cute. They're like these like, little puff balls of like, oh, yes. So you can't like not be like… when you're talking to them. You know what I mean? So you have to put this, welder's mask over your face, so that they won't see your facial expressions, because there's just like, I mean, if you're a human with a heart, and you love animals, which, obviously, if you're working at the aquarium, or you're volunteering with, hopefully you are, you're a bleeding heart like me, right? So like, when you're working with them, you're just gonna be like, you know, and we just don't want them to see that we were put like all this stuff over us. So that we could go in and feed them and groom them because they the the grooming of their first so important in their health. It's what keeps them insulated from the cold water, it's going to keep them boyount and all of that. So we have to go and brush them and stuff. But we'd have to be in this like crazy get up so that they wouldn't just, you know, kind of bonds with us that we could release them back out into the wild. Yeah.
Gabaccia 19:03
That is so cool. And now I'm thinking we need like, four or five episodes just to talk about all the things and now I'm thinking like, Oh, I just like I put myself in this position by titling this. A spiritual sustainability where like, I know, we got plenty of things to talk about. But let's I but I do want to veer the conversation towards that since that's what I advertised.
Rachael 19:26
Yes, let's go sorry. You know, you know I'll go off.
Gabaccia 19:29
No, but I think we should just do a part two, where we just come and talk about animal conservation, because I think it's so it's and I love that you know so much about it. And we like I think we both know about it, but from very different perspectives of management of the resource. I think it'll be super fun to do that. But for today, we said we're going to talk about spiritual sustainability. And before but before we get into that, I want to ask you, what does exploring responsibily mean to you.
Rachael 20:03
Exploring responsibly means the understanding that everything we do has impacts on other things. Right? To me, it's about the understanding of First of all, yes, explore, look, be a part of it. But recognize that reciprocal relationship that we have recognize that, you know, the way we walk upon the earth impacts more than just ourselves. And you know, what we take from the earth impacts more than just ourselves, and what we give back to the earth impacts more than just ourselves. So for me, it's really about kind of like a reciprocity. Yeah.
Gabaccia 20:40
Oh, I love that. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. Your your definition of exploring responsibly, and now veering into today's topic, which I'm just really excited to, to hear everything that you have to say about spiritual sustainability, because there is this understanding that, oh, we are all spiritual people and the in the spiritual community, like, we might all think that because we're spiritual, we're doing good things. But I feel like there's a side there, that hasn't been taken into consideration in the different levels, right, like sustainability of the land and the resources that are utilized in spiritual practices, but also in the acknowledgement, and in respect of the origin of, of, of those spiritual practices to so why don't you? Why don't you kind of guide us through your thoughts in relation to that?
Rachael 21:45
Yeah, I love that. And I also want to state because I completely agree, I think from the spiritual community side of recognizing the way our actions and especially some of the things that tools that we use that are considered part of our spiritual tools, like, Where's that actually coming from? What's the energy behind that? I think also, it works on the other end of the spectrum, too, which is kind of in that conservation world, where we get very action oriented, and focused is also an understanding of the energy behind that as well. Because I know personally, being in the conservation and sustainability world for a while, I also was dealing with massive eco phobia, anxiety and depression during that time. And that was the energy behind a lot of the action that was being taken. So I think on both ends, there's something we can learn from each other.
Gabaccia
Yes, exactly.
Rachael 22:40
Yeah. So from the spiritual world the way I see it, is when we, when we kind of dive into the world of spirituality, and we start of course, learning from typically more ancient civilizations that were preaching this long before the time we're currently at. It kind of gets whitewashed and watered down in some of the talent. I think many of us who go into learning spiritual concepts, recognize that we're getting some of that from like, Eastern traditions, right, a lot of time about India, or some things from China. And I think it's starting to happen more and more now. But for a long time, the indigenous populations that we were learning a lot of these kind of universal truths from, we're very much kind of shoved away, you know, I think a little bit of that change with the whole Four Agreements, which kind of brings in the toltec expression, which is more Mayan more Mesoamerican. And I think we're seeing a big change with it. Now, I think, you know, honestly, a lot we even with the Black Lives Matter is also spilling into as well should be this understanding of indigenous lives and the lands we live on, and that this country here in the United States of America was never well, it was never really they would say, oh, it wasn't owned. Well, that's because the people who lived here for 10s of 1000s, of years before Europeans ever came over, didn't believe in the concept of land ownership.The land doesn't belong to the people, the people belong to the lands. So that's just a completely different way of looking at things. So I think in terms of like, where we are now, when wanting to learn about spirituality, and I do believe 2020 is a big awakening year for a lot of people. And I think it's a good thing. But I think it's really important for us to spirituality is very much a seekers thing, right? Like you're seeking answers, you're seeking answers. So what I challenge people to do, especially in the spirituality world, is keep on following that line. keep on following that rope, follow it back to its origins so that you can understand a bit more about where that knowledge came from. And also to understand how can we take that ancient knowing and apply Apply it to our lives today, and especially the problems we're facing today. Who was it? Is it Einstein who has that quote, that's like we can't solve the world problems with the same thinking that God isn't to those problems. Right. And I think that that's what I see from even the spiritual side. And the conservation side is I think, sometimes we're trying to go into the problem solving within the same paradigms that brought us the problem to begin with. And so it's like a whole range today. But my big thing with spirituality is I feel like if you're having a spiritual practice that doesn't ever take into consideration sustainability on the land, I think there's a big part of your spirituality practice that's missing. Because the, the core tenet of spirituality, for me personally, is the interconnection of all life, which to me, is also the core tenants of ecology, the interconnection of all life, right? So if we go into this place of spirituality of wanting to learn about our place in the universe, what is the universe a creator? Why do bad things happen to good people? Why is there good and evil? All of these kind of questions, how to I create the life I want to create all these questions that arise when you're kind of diving into spirituality? Or is there a purpose behind it? Or I think that's kind of the big question we all have.
Gabaccia 26:22
The big question. Why are we here?
Rachael 26:24
Why?
Gabaccia 26:25
Why do I even exist?
Rachael 26:27
Why? Why does it feel so hard? Sometimes, you know, um, yeah, I think that, bringing it all back to this place of interconnection. To me, that's always where I found faith was in that place of interconnection. So I think that when you're going into spirituality, trying to find answers, you have to tie it back to also our physical presence here on this earth and our connection to the earth. Because we can't separate ourselves from it. You know, we can't separate ourselves from the lands beneath us. The soil that grows the foods we eat the air, we breathe, the water we drink, you just can't separate it. Yeah, did I answer that question?
Gabaccia 27:16
Yeah, no, I mean, it was it was very open ended. I just wanted to, like, let you kind of, you know, just stream of thought through that. Um, I'm wondering, like, what are some things that you think would be helpful for the spiritual community to start integrating sustainability into their practice?
Rachael 27:46
So I think the first thing when it comes to bringing you know concepts of sustainability into the spiritual practice, is to recognize the sources of whatever it is you're using, right? So you know, whether that be something like crystals to the sage smudge to essential oils, like where are those coming from? All of those are obviously extracted from the lands. I look. I'm wearing two different kinds of crystals right now. Like I love crystals. I love them. I've always loved them. I'm very drawn to them. I believe that they are nature's jewels. They're all grown under the earth. I mean, not so much Now. Now. You can get them from labs. Which I think is actually a good thing. I'm not anti crystals grown in labs. I think it's...
Gabaccia 28:31
Probably a good thing too.
Rachael 28:32
Yeah.
Gabaccia 28:33
Because I think probably take less time. Yeah. And we're not taking from the earth because that's another thing right? Like, especially with I remember my I love crystals too. And I've always been drawn to them as well. And I you know, I love a good crystal cleanse and, and just feeling them close to me. But I remember the first time I went mining for my own crystals. And while that was a really cool experience, where like, I got to be there and like find my rock and like, dig through. And I was I was mining for herkimer diamonds, which are some of my favorite quartz. And that was really cool. But then I also got this feeling of oh my gosh, this mine is just like it's a hole in the earth. You know, it's, it's a...
Rachael 29:23
Well, let's not forget, because there are lots of holes in the earth and this is something I like to think of like one way to keep the soil healthy with with your houseplant, is to poke holes in it.
Gabaccia 29:35
Mm hmm.
Rachael 29:36
Because you bring oxygen into that root zone area, you bring you create better chambers for the water to flow in and get to all the roots. So holes in the earth on their own are not necessarily a bad thing. I think about critters that are moving through the soil, right, gophers are earthworms. One of the reasons I say to poke holes in your house plants is because you don't have earthworms in your house plants soil, the way we do out in the wild that our crew naturally create they are natural pads. Yeah. So and one thing to remember also with most crystal, at least the crystals that I personally buy, these are not crystals that are being these are crystals that are being found in mining as mining byproducts. So the mines themselves are not specifically for the crystals.
Gabaccia 30:28
Those crystals. Yeah.
Rachael 30:29
But they find crystals as they're mining for other typically, you know, like heavy metal, and oils and shale and whatever it might be. The crystals are often byproducts of that. Now, of course, there are definitely areas where they are mining specifically for stones. But most often with crystals, that's the big money is not in the crystal. It's like the fossil fuels and the and all the materials that go into our phones, right and like that. So that's a little bit helpful. I do. I do think it's also good to ask like for me personally, since I work with wholesale crystals, since I plants into them, I asked my suppliers, the people who I was buying from, and it's very clear who was going to answer those questions and who isn't. And now I only work with crystal suppliers who will tell me where they source their crystals. I love the people I work with now they're based out of Southern California here. So they're pretty local, they're female owned, and she goes down to Brazil. Well, not so she usually goes down twice a year, of course, this year is a little different but she goes down to check on the minds to make sure that the people who are working on gathering the stones are treated well. You know what I mean? Like there's a transparency there that I really, really acknowledge and appreciate. And I think that's where there can be a little bit more happening in the spiritual world is by asking these questions. You know, a good example of that, that I'm sure people have heard a lot of is the whole issue with sage and the sage smudging with white sage. And I know that there are some ideas of just the cultural appropriation of it and like people misusing it. For me the issue is more that illegal harvesting of the white sage and in some areas white sage has now become endangered because of this kind of the harvesting of it in a way and that's where I really see the cultural appropriation not so much in using it to smudge but in harvesting it in a way that doesn't respect the way it was traditionally harvested.
Gabaccia 32:34
And yeah, and also the places it to me it's it's just mind blowing the most random places where you'll see smudge like a sage smudge stick for story. Why would you sell this here? Like I know so tell me tell me your story.
Rachael 32:57
I have an embarassing story for that so I don't buy like sage smudge sticks. The last sage I got was gifted to me by I was at Joshua Tree Music Festival. And this like Native American guy and his family were there and they had all this sage and I was like oh, I'll buy some from you and he's like no, we gift it and I was like oh well thank you can I gave him a crystal I was like I wanted to give something back you know. So and I only use one leaf at a time and I'm also currently growing white sage in my garden so I can grow my own and harvest, my husband loves to go to Spirit Halloween stores the day after Halloween to get like the you know half price decor Halloween pieces for next year he does my husband loves doing the whole haunted house for Halloween, my kids get all into it. He came back from the spirit thing this year. He's like honey, look what I got for you. And it was like an organic sage smudge thing and I was like no. And I feel so bad because already he's like you are so hard to buy gifts for and you know, and I was like honey that's me. Please don't ever buy me sage especially not at Spirit Store like
Gabaccia 32:58
That just hurts to know that...
Rachael 34:14
Right? Like that was just like what I'm supposed to do with this. Like I don't want to give it to someone else. I was like a tainted smudge stick like I'm not gonna need to do like a ceremony to like exercise the smudge
Gabaccia 34:28
Yeah probably because that oh gosh, that's just like hurt.
Rachael 34:32
Ill just throw it right in my compost and be like we're just gonna let you go right back to the earth and and start fresh.
Gabaccia 34:37
Yeah, that that might be Yeah, cuz I'm the one and you're like the the plan to solve already here. It's already been like, violated in a way but then yeah, how can you make that right?
Rachael 34:52
Yeah, yeah, I didn't know any better. You know, like my poor husband. He just didn't know he's like you. Like yeah, but this stuff I burn I know, you know.
Gabaccia 35:01
That's crazy. I know I actually. So for a hot second before I moved away from from before I moved out of San Diego. I was actually selling sage but the sage was the so my boyfriend used to work at a native plant nursery. Yeah. And they had tons of just waste sage. Oh, yeah. Well, it could and I would be like, yeah, they're just gonna throw it away. I was like, I feel like I you know, like, I know people that might want it. Um, so I had, I used to make some little sticks and supplements and things like that it was just for a hot second, but that was like, yeah, that was the sage that otherwise would just, well, I guess it will go back to the earth, which is also not bad, but like, but I like we were just gonna put it into the dumpster, it was not gonna really go back to the earth.
Rachael 35:56
That's the appropriate use of that. First of all, lots of different types of sage and other herbs can be used for smudging, it doesn't all have to be white sage this specific white sage.
Gabaccia 36:05
Yeah. And I and I think, like now, I mean, this was like, four, three years ago. Like what I know now it's very different. And I now have more connections to just native people and also, like, follow tons of native activists and and I hear more and more from that community. They're just saying, like, please stop, like, Don't make this the thing because that's what that's what propels our culture to enable this much stick. It's as much sticks as the freaking Halloween costume store. I mean, that's not a prop. Yeah, it's not an accessory for your Halloween costume.
Rachael 36:52
Well, I think the reason it was so big this year is because there's been in the last two years in particular, a lot more focused on Día de Muertos and people creating altars and actually actually see it as, yes, it's a bit of like, the capitalization and commodification of like spiritual practices, which has been increasing over the last five years, you know, like the word shaman is now heard, all over the place, you know, plant medicine is something you hear all over the place a lot of these concepts that a few years ago were like to woowoo right, but now, right, it's very commonplace. And of course, in our purely capitalistic society, people like Well, I'm gonna make money off that, you know, people are buying this, I'm gonna make money off of it. So I see that the Spirit store selling siege is actually kind of a, like an effect from this cause of people actually coming back to some of the spiritual side, especially of Halloween, like people are starting to make altars and want to, you know, send gratitude to ancestors. Like I know personally, even though I didn't grew up with Halloween at all, I wasn't allowed to celebrate Halloween as a kid, because I grew up in like a very Jewish family. And we have our own ways of doing, you know, immortalizing our ancestors and stuff. But this year, I also wanted to reclaim my own relationship with my ancestry. So I created an altar, and I used some of the stuff from my own, you know, background, I did Shabbat candles and the prayer from, you know, from my backgrounds and our ancestors, but I did it in this timeframe where the veil is thin, all halau EU, but the reason that there's so much is happening right there is because energetically, the veil is thin then so I and I do believe I mean, I even though I grew up with religion, I actually don't believe in religion at all. And while I also believe that humans, this is kind of interesting, like I believe in cultural appropriation, and I believe that it can be extremely harmful, and unfortunately, just with, you know, white supremacy and the patriarchy and colonialism and everything, there is the sense of like, white people can just take whatever they want from anyone and just run with it. But I also believe that as a as a, as a people, we are all need to find the common ground and come together in places of saying, Hey, I am not Mexican, but I can create an altar for my ancestors out of complete respect and admiration for that culture. I think sometimes when we get to a place of only these people can do this. Only these people can do this, and actually actually moves us further away from where we want to go, which is more unity and not unity in the sense of we're all going to be the same unity in the sense of we recognize we're all connected. Like I see those as being completely different things.
Gabaccia 39:53
Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's, I mean, there's something there because the way the way that I think of Our ancestors is that they all they all were, they were always income in constant exchange and trade, not just goods, because, you know, the people in the north grow this and they're getting, I mean, I think my, my boyfriend was telling me the story about like turquoise from hearing New Mexico found in the south of Mexico, right. So, you know, the, the trade went really far for goods and with goods, also customs and, and practices. So I definitely hear that where you're saying, like, if we have a relationship where we are invited to adopt this other ways of being spiritual, I think there should definitely be room for that, because we can all learn from each other's ways, even like you were just saying, you know, how, like, you don't believe in religion, or you don't practice religion, I, I'm the same way. And yet, I've found in studying different religions that all of them have something powerful that you can apply to your life, and they all have a message from which we can all learn. So it's not about me getting a you know, being the the only Catholic possible way in the world. And this is the only way it's just like this one way. And I can also learn from other people and how they practice their their spirituality. Yeah.
Rachael 41:35
And I see, I mean, my husband and I were just having conversation about this the other day, like, I see religion as being more of faith that's fueled by fear. Whereas spirituality is a faith that's fueled by love. So the way I see it as such as because religion is like, this belief that the world outside is scary and chaotic, and bad things happen to good people. And the only way for you to find some kind of faith in something better is to come into this place and follow these rules and listen to this person. And then you can feel when you have this faith that's rooted in this dogma, you can alleviate some of your fear, right. Whereas when you're coming to a faith, that's more rooted in a spiritual sense. It's switching the story that the world is chaotic and disorganized. And there's no purpose to recognizing the world is actually loving, giving, conscious and is actually more fueled by love. And from that place, you have a faith in something bigger than yourself, but it's not then kind of like imprisoned by this dogma that the fears kind of fueling within us. So, you know, we kind of had this conversation because my family is still very, very religious.
Gabaccia 43:00
And yeah, no, and I and I think there's, yeah, there's, I mean, it's, it's, uh, especially when it comes to family and relationships, like the, the religion can be a make or break, right. And that's, and that's where I am not okay with it, you know, and in many ways, it's like, because I, I want all of us to be friends. And I don't, I don't know, I don't like the idea of judging people by their religion. I don't like the idea of not being able to talk to people because of religion or, or date people because of religion. I mean, all those things are to me, it's like, it makes me cringe. Right.
Rachael 43:47
Yeah.
Gabaccia 43:48
I definitely--
Rachael 43:49
Got there with you.
Gabaccia 43:51
But I definitely agree with you on that.
Rachael 43:53
Yeah, I'm right there with you. And that's coming from like my grandmother, who was raised in Germany and with my grandfather and a couple of family members was able to flee in 1940. But most of her family were not. She used to say to all of us, kids, Jews have to marry other Jews are after finishing what Hitler started, like, that's what she used to say to us. And I just remember...
Gabaccia 44:18
And you understand her, you know, like...
Rachael 44:21
I understand where she's coming from, but that to me is part of the reason why I am not a believer in religions. I think it ends up just separate separating us more and more and feeding that illusion that we're we're all separate from each other and feet and of course we've all seen and continue to see.
Gabaccia 44:46
Absolutely. Since we're coming on time, yeah. My fear of the conversation to another topic that I'm really interested in hearing your your take on which is the use of essential oils, because I feel like a lot of folks are not aware of what it takes, you know, like, I feel like it's very easy to encounter the world of essential oils and just me like, oh essential oils for my life, like I drink them, I put them on my sofa sitting on my skin, I put them on my pillow, like, you know, we can use them all day long for all sorts of things. But I know that there is a lot to take into consideration when it comes to the extraction of the essential oils. And you know, the profits of that to get to market. So I want to I want to hear just from you like what those processes are like and what are your thoughts on finding, I guess sustainable solutions to to the use of your essential oils?
Rachael 45:51
Yeah, well, great question. I love essential oils. I've been using essential oils for 10 years now I first started using them when I was pregnant with my first daughter to help with some, you know, nausea and things like that. And I have to say in the last 10 years, I've also been really disappointed with the lack of... comes to essential oil use and essential oil like recipes are just completely different from what I have researched and learned from you know, learning from aroma therapists and naturopaths and people who are not selling the oils but who have used the oils. So I think the first thing to keep in mind with essential oils when it comes to sustainability in particular is the massive amount of plant material it takes to create one bottle of essential oil, essential oil, what you're doing is you're extracting that very potent phytochemicals very specific phytochemicals, which are plant chemicals from within plant material, you're extracting out only the oil from that plant. So typically, they're using a stemmed steam distillation method, which means they take all this plant material, steam it for a long period of time, capture the moisture, you know, like when you steam in, the water turns into vapor, you can capture some of that and little oils are then separated from the water vapors and that's how you get an essential oil. And just to give you a little bit of perspective, to get one pound of lavender oil, one pounds of lavender oil, which is going to be like a larger bottle of essential oil takes 250 pounds of lavender plant. 250 pounds of lavender. For one pound of lavender essential oil.
Gabaccia 47:46
How many acres of lavender do you need for that?
Rachel 47:50
I don't know.
Gabaccia 47:51
Oh, gosh, that's a lot.
Rachael 47:51
It's not a very heavy.
Gabaccia 47:56
That's what I yeah, that's secreting. Like, what's your 150 pounds? It's like, how are we even making these oils? Like where do we fit?
Rachael 48:04
Yeah, well, I mean, you use for the lavender fields and you know and are you on and in France and another good one. 1500 lemons 1500 lemons for one pound of lemon oil, essential oil. And here's a really good one, 40 to 60 roses for one drop of roses. 40 to 60 roses for one drop. And I think what what beyond the sustainability of like just the massive amount of plants it takes and then of course the the energy used to is, you know, Steve, steam it all distill it, separate the oils from the plants, then package it, then ship it and sell it. So like the energy usage within it can be quite extensive. Now there's benefits to essential oils because when we use essential oils we're taking we're getting rid of some toxic chemicals. So that's a good thing sustainability wise, like being able to make some of your own cleaning products, being able to use essential oils in place of like for example, I use lemon essential oil with some vinegar to clean my oven right instead of having to buy all kinds of chemicals that you would use otherwise degree decrease your oven. So there's definitely some good sustainability things in there. But I really caution people away from this idea of there's an oil for that right like that's what you see is like the tagline on a lot of the essential oil MLM companies which don't ever get, don't even get me started on the MLM. But this idea of like, any ailment you have, there's an essential oil for that. Well, there might be but there might also just be an herb, there might just be an aloe leaf, one leaf that you can use for that same skin condition that's going to have great effect on you and a much lighter footprint on the earth. The more oils you use, the more oils they sell.
Gabaccia 50:05
Right.
Rachael 50:06
Forget this idea of using an essential oil for every single thing in your life. Who is that benefiting most?
Gabaccia 50:17
Capitalism?
Rachael 50:19
Yes. Companies that are selling you the oils because they want you to do the oils very, very quickly because then you buy more. Whereas really essential oils are meant to be used drop by drop. for very specific purposes I do you use essential oils often daily, like for me, my skincare regimen, I don't use soap anymore, I use a bit of rose hip oil and one drop of Frankincense or one drop of my anti aging blend, rub it together. And that's what I used to clean my face. So I'm using essential oils daily. But I'm using drop by drop and one thing I never do, and this is going more into health safety for ourselves. I will never put essential oils into my food or my drinks. Essential oils are not made to be ingested. And I know that there's going to be a lot of people who buy oils from specific companies who are going to say that's not true. These are you know, deem safe you're supposed to put them in your water. Please don't put essential oils in your water. If there's like one thing I can leave you with today friends like please, please do not put essential oils in your water. One of the things we learned in chemistry when we're very young is oil and water do not mix. Remember when we were playing around with oil and water and how the oil sits right on top of the water? Oh, someone just said oh, I was about to ask about that. Yes, please please do not put essential oils in your water and drink it. Okay. Especially anything citrus, lemon or red. Oh my God, please do not ingest oregano rssential oil. Please, Please, I'm begging you. When we put these things in our water, it's just a drop of oil floating at the top of our water. I've been told to ingest them. Yes, many people...
Gabaccia 52:04
Yeah, that's what I keep hearing that. And I hear that some companies make the ingestible oil?
Rachael 52:06
No it's the same thing, they just have a different tag they put on the bottle, it's the same, it's the same thing.
Gabaccia 52:17
So what you're about to explain, like the science behind why we shouldn't ingest the oil.
Rachael 52:21
The oil on the top of the water. Okay, the first thing that hits your throat is the oil, not the water, the oil does not mix with water. Okay, so if you're gonna ingest an essential oil, the safest way to do it is to put it in some kind of fat soluble like fractionated coconut oil, butter, you know, you needed to be in some kind of fatty base so that oil goes red, down. So if you're taking lemon, a drop of lemon and putting it in your water, the first thing that hits that very soft tissue in the back of your throat is lemon essential oil. I have seen as lemon essential oil burn, paint off the inside of my fridge. Okay, this is how strong and powerful this oil is. Um, I use it to de-grease my oven. And to get like really annoying sticky labels off, you know, when you can't get that little bit of like stickiness. Use a little essential oil, come right off. Okay, this is very, very potent, powerful stuff. And it can actually cause very real damage to your esophagus, to your like the whole thing going down and then eventually also it puts a lot of strain on your liver because your liver is going to have to detoxify over time. So I've ingested Franken I don't know how to spell Frankincense. You've ingested Frankincense. Yeah, yeah, um, people have been told to ingest essential oils. I do not recommend it. Every single licensed aromatherapist naturopath and doctor I've spoken to also says that unless you are working with a clinical aromatherapist and a doctor who is well versed in ingesting essential oils, you should not be ingesting essential oils. Now do you know there is a difference between say a peppermint essential oil and peppermint oil Okay, like oil of peppermint is different than peppermint essential oil. Oil of peppermint is peppermint infused in an oil and then that oil tastes like peppermint. peppermint essential oil is essential oils pulled out of the peppermint plants so you're actually pulling out the phytochemicals by themselves from the plant that's what essential oil is. As opposed to an oil of like for example, people might use oil, menthol is for cooking which is basically peppermint. Oil of oregano is an ingredient again very different than oregano essential oil. Oregano essential oil which is very, very powerful fighting colds and flus even things like like a stomach bug. It is extremely powerful. I have used oregano essential oil and diluted to burn a wart off my foot. Like this is how powerful it is. I'm so and I love essential oils. Again, I'm not saying don't use essential oils, I think that there is such a good time and place for them. Unfortunately, what I'm seeing in the industry, especially in the health and wellness industry, which is very much based on capitalism, again, and consumerism is just use it for everything. It's healthier, it's safer. It's better for your family, yada, yada. Which is there is some truth like what I prefer to clean with essential oils that to clean with toxic chemicals. Yes, no question about it. Yes. But let's not forget that nature makes poisons just as well as she makes medicines and medicine when misused turns into a poison. So it's just remembering this. And also remembering that sometimes an essential oil is going to the best thing to use. Like for example, making your own cleaning supplies for me certain skin conditions, like making my own little face thing, face cleanser, and anti aging stuff, I use essential oils. But sometimes it's better to just use the herbs. Sometimes it's better to just go outside and make a cup of tea from mints in your garden than to try and put a drop of mint in hot water.
Gabaccia 56:38
No that, I mean, and that that's something that you know, back to like sustainability. Yeah. Are you just using this one product out of this is what everyone is telling you to do? Or are you aware of what are the alternatives and out of all those alternatives, which is the most sustainable to practice for that particular purpose? Like, why you're saying that tea? Like why will you add a drop of peppermint oil that takes who knows how many plants.
Rachael 56:47
Pounds and pounds of peppermint.
Gabaccia 57:05
Yeah, pounds of plants and instead of just dropping some leaves. Like, you know or from the market. But like, yes, no, that's, that's, that's crazy.
Rachael 57:20
Yeah. Yeah.
Gabaccia 57:22
So I think and yeah, everybody's saying that yeah, they didn't know. And so at least, I think something that I really appreciate you saying is go with a licensed naturopath, aroma therapist, people that really know what this is about, like they're not they're not in the business of selling you this product. They're in the business of healing you and and guiding you in the best path.
Rachael 57:45
And and please, if you're using essential oil and a rash comes up, that is not you detoxifying, that is you having an allergic reaction to that oil, stop using it, please.
Gabaccia 57:59
Oh is that what people are told?
Rachael 58:01
Like I heard like, if you're using essential oils, and you get itchy rashes, it's just your body detoxifying. No, it's your body saying I'm having an allergic reaction to that stop using it. Maybe it's because you're not diluting it, that's another thing that's important. If you're going to be using essential oils on your skin, you always want to dilute it into a carrier oil first. Again, that is because it's safer for you that way and also you're going to use less oil. Like if you consider if you tried to put one drop of essential oil, it's not going to go very far in your face. But if you add one drop of essential oil to one teaspoon of a carrier oil mix all around, then you can spread it much further and you're getting a lot more for you know, you can just use less again with essential oils its about using less which people who are selling you the essential oil don't want you
Gabaccia 58:51
I know I go to a local shop here in Santa Fe, this goes soap and you basically like you know, they'll refill your containers and all of that and they do have a little essential oil bar. And you know, I went like months ago to try them out and to get to get some soap that just for sensitive skin you know, like it's we're in the desert, it gets super dry. And I think for like I don't know, maybe eight ounces of soap there are like seven drops of oil and in you know and you don't even need to use them with soap either. It's just, it's just a matter of because ultimately my my understanding the way that I've always used from what my mom taught me I grew up I had asthma and Eucalyptus and thyme like they saved my childhood pretty much so, I am very much close to them but my understanding was always that this is aroma therapy, which means this is for you to to smell it, you know like the sense is that the power of it. So for me, it's like even I have my little bottles of oils that I just open. Yeah. And like smell and close up and go like, Yeah, sometimes I'll like, take whatever's on the like, top of it and like, yes. You know, like, yeah, like, I do ears on my third eye and that but yeah, like, most times, I don't even need to flip it for a drop or anything. Like, it's just whatever is there? I mean, I can have. Yeah, I can have it for a really, really long time.
Rachael 1:00:25
Yeah, yeah. No, it's it's very true. Less is more there was a question here. Is moisturizer, an okay carrier, it's if it's like a job, or was it? Yeah, you can use moisturizer as a carrier. Just basically anything that is like a fat soluble with most moisturizers are made with some kind of like fat, whether it's like a coconut oil, or like a coconut milk or, you know, some kind of fat in there that helps it to spread. So as long as it's some kind of fat soluble for the essential oil to really be able to come apart and be spread into something else, then you're safe. So that works really, really well. And yeah, I completely agree with you. So smelling it, but it can also have an effect on our skin and can also be absorbed into our bloodstream through skin. And then of course, you know, when you look at it from an energy perspective as well, you can certainly use the senate essential oils for energy protection and for shifting your energy, which again, comes back to sense and like the aromatherapy side of it. Oh, you're very welcome. Yeah, so I'm all for it. But again, it's really just about using it very intentionally using it in a way that's going to be safe for you. And if you're ever seen, like if you're on Pinterest, and you see all those recipes, where different essential oil blends. Anytime you see anything that has like 15 drops of this and 20 drops of this, please be cautious because what is how much carrier base? Are you putting that into 15 drops is a lot of drops of anything, typically for any recipe, depending on how much like how many tablespoons of oil you're using, or whatever how many ounces of the base you're using, you should only have like five, maybe six drops of any type of essential oil that goes into it. So if you're seeing double digit drops of oil, be cautious.
Gabaccia 1:02:18
Yeah, how many gallons of product are you making?
Rachael 1:02:21
Yeah, I mean, like, seriously, are we getting a gallon here, then maybe we need 15 drops of 10 different types of oil. But otherwise, two to three, like five to seven max is probably good.
Gabaccia 1:02:32
Nice. Rachel, thank you so much for your time today. Thank you so much for for sharing all your wonderful expertise and just your perspective on all of these things. I do have one last question because I, we talked a lot about like this, I feel like this is gonna be perfect way to wrap it up. We talked a lot about how this spiritual community or anyone that practices spirituality can take sustainability into that practice. I want to ask you, how can the sustainability community take something from the spiritual community into their office?
Rachael 1:03:13
Thank you. I love that question. So the story, the brief story I have in front of that is my own history with eco phobia, depression and anxiety. I care very, very much about the world. I care very, very much about the animals and the plants and the humans that live upon this beautiful, glorious Earth. When I was involved in ocean education, environmental education, I had a hard time balancing my absolute dismay and depression and fear of what I was learning with the hope and inspiration I was trying to teach. So I think one thing that's really important for us in the sustainability world to remember is how we feel matters, our energy matters. And if we're going into this world of conservation and sustainability, using blame, shame, fear, anxiety, as a way to get some more balanced living, we're actually bringing in more energies of fear, blame, shame. And I think one thing we've learned over the last three decades of scientists yelling from the rooftops about climate change, it doesn't seem like fear is really the best motivating factor for us. It doesn't seem like fear is actually getting us to change our ways. So my premise is what about if we try love? What if love can be the bigger motivating factor for us and how we change the way we interact with the world? I don't have an answer to that yet. It's a hypothesis I am currently living.
Gabaccia 1:05:02
I like that really take that to heart. She's like, I got something to say about this. She's like, oh, no, they're learning with her not gonna be in fear anymore.
Rachael 1:05:15
So that's my hypothesis. That's what I believe I know when I, the plants have taught this to me, the plants have come into my life to remind me of the wellness of the world, to remind me that the dominant flow of energy to our Earth is still one of creation, balance, and remembering that destruction is part of the creation cycle, and that the only thing that we can count on is change. So even us in the conservation world to freak out about extinctions, rightfully so especially when we're the cause of those extinctions, or the fact that certain things are changing, we have to remember, this world has been along for far longer than we've been around, and what we consider normal has changed numerous times, even within the scope of human existence. So what is the energy we're bringing into the actions we're taking for the earth? Are we come into it from a place of belief in a possibility of a future that's more balanced? Are we coming into it from a place of absolute fear and dismay? Because it matters, and matters. Yeah.
Gabaccia 1:06:25
Thank you so much for everything you shared today. Is there any project that you're working on that you're excited about that you want to share with everyone who's listening?
Rachael 1:06:35
Well I don't have anything like I mean, I have here we are talking about like capitalism. I'm like, I got a sale! Oh, man.
Gabaccia 1:06:46
Oh, man. Well, just I can I can speak to that Rachel is launching a new and revamped online store and she has all sorts of sustainably sourced crystals and succulents, that and a beautiful art arrangements that you can order through her shop and also offers remote. Yeah, remote services like chakra reads and cleanses and crystal healing and pranic healing and she's just...
Rachael 1:07:19
Plant styling. And if you want to learn about working with plants, or even herbal ism, I actually have two masterclasses I've already taught that are going to be up on my website that you can just buy there and watch as well. So if you're looking more for, you know, something educational for yourself as a gift, or for someone else, there's also gift certificates. So I'm going to just like sell myself there, just because we're in that season. I do think that in 2021, I will host a masterclass on essential oil safety, because it seems like that is wanted and needed. So someday do anyone know, oil safety. And I'll also be working on more of a master course, which is about aligning energetically with nature, like on a personal level learning to align your energies with energies of nature, and that also contain sustainability in there too. So that's all coming 2021 but for right now, you can just check out my beautiful brand new shop. Gabi. You're amazing.
Gabaccia 1:08:17
Yeah, maybe I made it.
Rachael 1:08:20
Yeah, if you have any questions about anything we discussed today, just reach out. I am always reading my DMs It is me. I'm the one who's interacting. So be so happy to meet you all there.
Gabaccia 1:08:30
Yes, hit her up @infinitesucculent on Instagram, infinitesucculent.com is her website. I'm also going to throw up that in the caption when I post the replay to the IGTV. So thank you so much rebel for being here. In the second episode of Exploring responsibly. Thank you everyone else who tuned in. I hope you learned something I definitely learned a lot will definitely I already saw requests for part two. So I know we'll be back here talking maybe more about this maybe about one of the other many things that that I know that you have expertise on and that we can all continue to learn from you. Thank you so much amiga.
Rachael 1:09:10
I love you, I love you.
Gabaccia 1:09:12
I love you too. Bye. We'll see you soon. Bye.
Rachael 1:09:14
Bye.
